[Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??

[William P. Taggart]

Other than these details, what did you think of Joe's writing?    :-)

________________________________

From: Bill Barnes [mailto:cleanhead77 at earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:35 AM
To: tradjazz at list.okom.com
Subject: Re: [Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"??


 The late great??? Joe Klee?? Joe was a nice enough fella, but I think
his knowledge of jazz was mediocre at best. Famous quotes of his: "The
Ellington band didn't swing" or how about " Bix's solos were written
out" . He  put his foot in his mouth many times over the years. As a
correspondent for the Mississippi Rag he covered mostly free venues in
New York, hardly ever spending anything to write about things like
concerts in Lincoln Center or any clubs that charged a cover or a
premium for drinks, etc. In a other words, if it cost, you probably
wouldn't read about it in Joe's column.Moreover, he didn't seem to be
able to distinguish between really good players and those who dazzled
with a lot of bullshit.
         Nice guy? faithful jazz fan?Fun character about town? YES!
Great writer/critic? NO.
          Some could consider this a pot calling a kettle black,
although I don't recall my ever being called "great". Well, we are
supposed to stir up stuff here, so why not?
          If you think this is controversial, Google Ed Cuneo, banjo
player in Florida, and read his blog  containing a review of the Black
Eagles Jazz Band he wrote several years ago. That'll really stir up a
hornets' nest.
                                                      Bill Barnes

	----- Original Message ----- 
	From: Bruce McNichols <mailto:muskrat at bestweb.net>  
	To: tradjazz at list.okom.com 
	Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:56 PM
	Subject: [Tradjazz] '' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC
JAZZ"??

	I shoulda known that this thing was gonna open up so many cans
of worms, that I'd become ensnared, and never get back to work.  Hey!
Maybe I like that idea.
	 
	Bill Taggart, OKOM's founder (and funder) seems to have ascribed
some opinions, to me.  Many are opinions that I don't have and don't
recall ever stating.  Seeing as how Bill runs the place, I'd better be
careful what I say here.  Oh heck.  I'll say it anyway.
	 
	I really don't wish to state that there are significant
differences between Trad Jazz, Dixieland, and Classic Jazz.
	 
	I'm sure that I never said that Bill was unsophisticated for not
knowing the differences.  One of the reasons I'm sure I never said that
(or thought it) is because I firmly believe that:  NOBODY CAN DEFINE
JAZZ.  Many think they can, and many have tried, but I don't buy it.

		A dear friend of mine, the late great Joe H. Klee, had a
pat definition of jazz and I often chided him for presuming to be the
one person who could define it.  Joe, by the way, was a long-time
reviewer and columnist for the revered Mississippi Rag, that wonderful
publication dedicated to our beloved music.  {check them out at
www.mississippirag.com }

	Joe's definition started with:  It must be improvised music.  I
can understand that it might be hard to imagine musicians reading jazz,
but when I hear some of the recordings of the Goodman band, or Artie
Shaw, or Jimmie Lunceford, or the Coon Sanders Orchestra, and on and on
- I can't help but think that it's jazz.  As with the King Oliver Band,
I suspect that the charts had spaces for improvising.  Beyond that, I
submit that the ensemble reading sections, sure sound like Jazz to me.
	 
	I've heard that Louis Armstrong, when asked "What is Jazz?"
replied "If you gotta ask, you'll never know."  I've also heard that You
can learn how to play jazz, but you can't teach it.   I don't mean to
say that just because I've heard (or read) such things, that that makes
it so.  I do say, that we should consider all such things.
	 
	~~~
	As I understand it, the term "Traditional Jazz," was coined by
Turk Murphy, in the late 1940's.  I like that term.  I think that the
term "Dixieland Jazz" has taken a bum rap, in that it may conjure up the
image of a bunch of guys in striped vests, playing corny versions of
so-called Dixieland Jazz.  
	 
	I think that our music was born in New Orleans, from a
combination of Spiritual music, along with some rhythms from the
Caribbean, mixed with Ragtime sounds and European music.  I think that
the folks in England, began performing their version of our music, in
the late 40's and 1950's.  It's my impression that they are what is
called British Trad bands.
	 
	Bill indicates that I said that Trad Jazz came out of the
English music halls.  I don't believe that, and I doubt if I ever said
it, although it's reasonable to assume that Music Hall music had some
influence on it.  I think it came from the British musicians who were
highly influenced by the New Orleans sounds.  I don't recall citing
Acker Bilk as a prime example of British Trad Jazz, although I must say,
thanks to Radio OKOM's vast record collection, I've come to have a new
respect for Acker Bilk and his band.  His big hit (Stranger on the
Shore) never knocked me out.

		The more I read Bill's comments, the more I think that
he is a very clever fellow.  I do believe that I've been had.  I think
he has engineered this thing, simply to spur a controversy.  Wellsir.
You've succeeded Bill, because here I am, and I can't stop myself.  Are
ya happy?

	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	From my observations, the old-time New Orleans bands seem to
have the bass player (string bass or tuba), playing 4-beat (4 beats to
the bar).  The banjo player (if there was one) also played 4 beats to
the bar.  Often the piano would comp chords, also 4 to the bar.
	 
	As the story goes, when Storyville (in New Orleans) was shut
down, many musicians traveled up the Mississippi River and brought their
music to St. Louis and Chicago etc..  I think that King Oliver, Louis
and Jelly Roll Morton spent time in Chicago, playing and recording.
	 
	As the years went on, the music transmogrified into more of a
swinging 4-beat feel. Some had guitar, but not usually banjo.  Many of
the sacred names in our music, came on the scene:  Bix Beiderbecke,
Eddie Condon, Wild Bill Davison, and on and on.  They developed what I
think of as Chicago Style jazz.
	 
	Later, many of these musicians came to New York, and the New
York style was born.  I think of Chicago Style and New York Style as
being similar.
	 
	~~~
	In the 1940's, guys such as Lu Watters and his crew (Turk
Murphy, Bob Scobey, Bob Helm, Bob Short, and may others) discovered the
music of many years earlier, and began playing it.
	 
	Their recordings were probably the spark that began the
so-called Dixieland Revival, that lasted until the early 1960's.  Bands
around the world emulated the sound of Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band
(of San Francisco).  Along with that, the Chicago crew (Condon et al)
were going strong in New York.  During the 40's and early 50's, the
famed 52nd Street in NYC, came alive with music.  
	 
	The 52nd Street bands included old-time Dixieland  bands, along
with the likes of Fats Waller and many newer style players such as
Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Nat "King" Cole and many more.
	 
	One of my favorites was the Wilbur DeParis Band.  They played at
the original Jimmy Ryan's club on 52nd Street.  OKOM's founder, Bill
Taggart, tells me that he sat in with that band, when he was the tuba
man with the Southampton Dixie Racing & Clambake Society Jazz Band (long
may their banner wave).

		In the 1960's, members of my band, and I, visited the
54th Street Jimmy Ryan's many times.  We had the pleasure of sitting in
with the likes of Max Kaminsky (cornet), Tony Parenti (clarinet), Cliff
Jackson (piano) and Zutty Singleton (drums).  These guys were some of
the originators of our music.
		 
		Later there was another Jimmy Ryan's (on 54th Street)
where Roy Eldridge led the band for many years.

	Wilbur called his group a "New, New Orleans Band."  They had
what I think of as, a slicker, smoother, version of the basic New
Orleans music.
	 
	I had the pleasure of seeing them often.  I especially enjoyed
Omer Simeon on clarinet.  Earlier, Simeon did many recordings with Jelly
Roll Morton.
	 
	~~~
	I do not think that the word "jazz" means modern jazz, but I do
think that the average person, might think so.  I've often heard people
refer to "jazz" and "Dixieland" as two different things.  They just
don't understand that the original "Jazz" is quite different from the
so-called Modern Jazz.
	 
	I happen to like most kinds of jazz, especially the older
styles.  I draw he line at the way-out modern stuff.  When a band
forsakes the rhythm section, they lose me.  That's not to say that that
isn't a valid interpretation of music.  What I do say is "They ain't
talkin' to me."
	 
	~~~~~
	Please know that this is just one guy's rambling thoughts.  I
certainly don't claim to be an expert on any of this.  What I am, is an
avid fan who has been exposed to many styles of music.  I've read a lot
about this stuff, but then, what I've read, is just some other guys'
opinions and thoughts.

		There ain't no right and the ain't no wrong.

	~~~
	Now, as with Bill Taggart, I'll just sit back and wait for the
sparks to start flying.
	 
	McN  
	Bruce - I know a little bit about a lot of things - McNichols
	 
	 
	XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
	XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
	 
	message posted previously by Bill Taggart: 
	 
	'' TRAD JAZZ", "DIXIELAND" OR "CLASSIC JAZZ"?? 
	
	I'd like your help in resolving a difference of opinion. My good

	friend, BRUCE MCNICHOLS, of Radio OKOM fame, has taken a
position that 
	there are great and significant differences among the phrases
"Trad 
	Jazz", " Dixieland", and "Classic Jazz". He says I'm
unsophisticated 
	for not knowing the differences. According to Bruce, Trad Jazz
refers 
	only to a very narrow style of Jazz originating from English
show bands 
	and pretty much played only in England. He cites Acker Bilk as a
prime 
	example. 
	
	"Dixieland", on the other hand, refers only to the loose form of
music 
	that originated in New Orleans. 
	
	"Classic Jazz" refers to Chicago and West Coast Jazz. 
	
	To top it all off, he says that the word," Jazz", without a
preceding 
	adjective, means Modern Jazz, starting with Charlie Mingus. 
	
	I, for one, find it difficult to define Our Kind Of Music in
such 
	explicit and definitive ways. I believe there is so much overlap
among 
	styles that these terms are much more interchangeable. Americans
can 
	play Trad Jazz with the best of 'em. 
	Certainly, the word "Jazz", whether standing alone or not, does
not 
	refer only to modern Jazz. 
	
	What do you think? 
	

	

	
________________________________


	

	_______________________________________________
	Tradjazz mailing list
	Tradjazz at list.okom.com
	http://list.okom.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tradjazz
	

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://list.okom.com/pipermail/tradjazz/attachments/20060829/e2e3cb62/attachment.htm