[Tradjazz] Goodman, Whiteman, et al, Condon's view

[Bill Barnes]

Hi Steve:
       No, I was not shooting at you, but at Condon and whoever else agreed 
with those idiotic statements. I've already written here and elsewhere about 
what I think of Condon. Suffice to say that as a jazzman he wasn't fit to 
carry Goodman's jock.Of course not all the music in Benny Goodman's '38 
Carnegie Hall concert was jazz in the strict sense of that style, but some 
of it sure was. Who can say those great solos on "Sing Sing Sing" were   not 
jazz at its' very finest.
        Now let's talk about big bands and their "slick" arrangements. Many 
big band arrangements, such as Henderson's "King Porter Stomp" or Nestico's 
"Flight to Nassau", just for a small example, are actually improvised jazz, 
not so much by the performers, AS BY THE ARRANGER. Just as you might listen 
to a jazz record, which is the same every time you play it, so is an 
arrangement that way as well.The arranger creates from his mind on paper the 
same way a performer may create on his horn.
   Also, how is that really different from Condon's band playing "That's 
A'Plenty", "High Society",or "Blue Again" as I heard many times, the same 
way every time except for solos between the ensemble parts?Does that mean 
just because the "arrangement " is memorized that it's not hot jazz ? How 
about Condon's "arrangement" of "LIZA"?Not jazz?
      I am NOT trying to say that all this isn't jazz. It's great jazz and I 
love it. It's just not the only jazz, as some limited tenor guitar (read 
large ukulele) player with a big mouth would have it.
                                                           Bill Barnes



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Barbone" <barbonestreet at earthlink.net>
To: <tradjazz at list.okom.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: [Tradjazz] Goodman, Whiteman, et al, Condon's view


> Nothing like a little discussion amongst friends eh Roomie?
>
> For the others on the list, Bill Barnes and I were roomies at Duke
> University long ago and though we don't see each other often, we are still
> good friends.
>
> As he states, he was not shooting at me, but perhaps at Eddie Condon's
> opinion of what jazz was and who played it, or not.
>
> Bill Haesler, who came to my defense is one of the, if not the foremost
> discographer of OKOM in Australia, and perhaps the world. He is also the
> writer of liner notes on hundreds of jazz albums and, like Bill Barnes, a
> top notch stand up guy as well as a good jazz musician. They would get 
> along
> famously over a liter of Fosters.
>
> Condon's views were clearly stated, (except for the Kenny G. reference 
> which
> was my hyperbole) in his book "We Called It Music."
>
> My reference to Goodman was from a conversation Condon had with Ernie
> Anderson in late 1941 about a proposed January 14 1942 concert with Fats
> Waller at Carnegie Hall.
>
> Said Condon; "Ernie wanted to invade Carnegie Hall. Whiteman had been 
> there,
> and Goodman, but neither had given the customers real jazz. . ."
>
> Earlier, in talking about Luis Russell's band Condon said; "His was also a
> large group; with Henderson and Ellington he set a pattern which later was
> copied by white band leaders of the late thirties - Goodman, The Dorsey
> Brothers, Krupa, etc. It was slick, commercial, arranged music; it was
> successful; it paid the rent. Late at night when the business of making a
> living was finished, the men in the big bands sat around in small groups
> playing music they way they wanted to play it, improvising, creating. Jazz
> was for them a luxury, something to be enjoyed on their own time at their
> own expense. Frank Teschmaker had often said, 'you can't play it hot and
> make a living out of it'."
>
> What Kenny G has done is carved out a successful niche in the commercial 
> end
> of the music business. Not unlike Goodman IN THAT REGARD as I see it and 
> so
> I used the comparison. Perhaps the difference is that Kenny G calls 
> himself
> a player of "instrumental pop" while his audience and those of us who hate
> him continue to wrongly define him as a jazz musician.
>
> Condon clearly did not see Goodman as a player of "real jazz" and if he 
> were
> still with us today would probably have the same opinion about Kenny G.
>
> Regarding Artie Shaw, he quit music because he felt he was made a prisoner
> by the audiences that continually demanded songs like Begin The Beguine 
> and
> Frenesi. The music he loved, (jazz?) was not commercially viable and since
> he had made his "go to hell money", he left the business, denigrating his
> audience as mindless idiots. Said Shaw; "I hate selling myself. I hate the
> fans. They won't even let me play without interrupting me. They scream 
> when
> I play, they don't listen. They don't care about the music. . . . 
> jitterbugs
> are morons . .  unfortunately popular music in America is 10 percent art 
> and
> 90 percent business. As a result, it boasts more than its share of
> charlatans and lacks its share of honest, intelligent critics."
>
> In answer to the question of whether he would have stayed in the music
> business if he could have had backing enough to allow him to do what he
> wanted musically, Shaw said; "Tempting. I'd probably have stayed with 
> music
> the rest of my life."
>
> Notice that Shaw does not describe what he was playing as jazz, but rather
> music. :-) VBG  He also thought of the Gramercy Five as Chamber Music,
> though we think of it as jazz.
>
> What Condon finally accomplished, in the 1940s, first at Nicks and then at
> his own joint. was to play hot jazz and make a living at it. Those of us,
> like Bill Barnes and I, who heard that music live, will never forget it. 
> It
> was from the gut and like Louis Armstrong's small band jazz of the 1920s,
> and again with the All Stars after 1947, something that no one else seems 
> to
> have accomplished in terms of raw power and rhythmic pulse.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve Barbone
>
>
>
>
>
>
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